Tacoma Link Expansion Survey: SHUT UP AND BUILD ALREADY!
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 12:52am
|sound transit horse mouth
by marumaruyopparai on 8/21/2012 @ 12:55am
by Erik on 8/21/2012 @ 2:05am
|According to Gig Harbor City Councilmember Derek Young, Tacoma may not get any rail LINK extension at all but only a bus to pick people at here LINK now ends.Sounds crazy. |
But that is what councilmember Young states may be one of the options Sound Transit takes, Here is his full comment on Exit 133 (comment #3) on the matter:
Sound Transit had a presentation on this process at our Pierce
Transit board meeting on Monday. An interesting points came up that I
thought people might want to be aware of.
Link extension doesn’t necessarily mean light rail extension.
Although that’s the most obvious option, when asked, ST staff said that
alternative modes would be considered such as Bus Rapid Transit (BRT). en.wikipedia.org/wik…
It’s very similar in operation to light rail, but the cost is usually
significantly less. Light rail still has a number of advantages that I
think justify the cost, but it’s important to weigh all the pros/cons
and that’s what an alternatives analysis is designed for.
I’m not as directly affected as you all since I live outside the ST
boundaries on the other side of the bridge, but this is pretty exciting
for Tacoma and therefore the rest of the county. Looking forward to
seeing the final product.
Sorry, but I don't think getting off Tacoma's LINK on Commerce and piling into a bus is what Tacoma voters thought they were voting for in 2008 after which time Sound Transit started taxing the citizens of Tacoma.
This would be the nightmare version of a political bait and switch. Let's hope that councilmember Young only heard a brainstorming comment from a Sound Transit junior intern.
by Erik on 8/21/2012 @ 2:44am
|Say it isn't so Sound Transit:|
Sound Transit May Give Tacoma a Bus Extension Rather than a Light Rail Expansion
by KevinFreitas on 8/21/2012 @ 7:02am
|Thanks RR and Erik! Just took the survey!|
by cisserosmiley on 8/21/2012 @ 8:11am
|Joni Earl told me it makes more sense to use road trans from a cost and utilization standpoint. Busses lose to rail only in the hipster factor, and there are cool new busses that look like rail cars but run on tires. Perfect for 6th avenue where I own property.|
by The Jinxmedic on 8/21/2012 @ 8:31am
Not quite sure how you're going to get rail up 6th avenue- there isn't a whole lot of room up there...
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 8:32am
|if they can shoehorn rail down the alley known as commerce street, they can make 6th ave happen.
by The Jinxmedic on 8/21/2012 @ 9:27am
|Yes, but there's not a whole lot of non-transit traffic on Commerce Street...|
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 9:28am
|couple things now that I think of it.. he should have short sleeves, and those fingerless weightlifting gloves.
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 9:37am
|really interesting comments happening here!|
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 10:43am
|no more delays! |
by tacoma_1 on 8/21/2012 @ 10:56am
|Just took the survey also.
That is a great way to let ST know what we are thinking.
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 11:23am
|what are THEY thinking?|
by Erik on 8/21/2012 @ 12:25pm
|In the Sound Transit survey, tell them that Tacomans want a LINK light rail extension, not a LINK bus extension:|
by Thorax O'Tool on 8/21/2012 @ 12:29pm
|Free ST slogan:|
Sound Transit: Abandon hope ye who are not Seattle
by cisserosmiley on 8/21/2012 @ 12:54pm
these busses would be awesome from the theatre district up 6th ave to Cedar st.
by Erik on 8/21/2012 @ 1:02pm
|Nice pics cissero.|
However, there are many advantages Streetcars have over buses:
Why streetcars are better than buses
DC Circulator and Streetcar, to scale. Not the same.
Streetcars are big in planning circles right now. DC and Arlington have grand plans for them, as do many cities around the US. Every time the subject comes up, however, someone poses the question what makes streetcars better than buses?
It’s a valid question, and it has a series of valid answers. Here are the most important:
While it’s true that streetcars require a much larger initial capital
investment than buses, that capital cost is offset by significant
operational savings year-to year. In the long term, streetcars are more
affordable as long as they are used on high ridership routes.
which means that if there are lots of riders on your route, you can
move them with fewer vehicles. Fewer vehicles means more efficient use
of fuel and fewer (unionized, pensioned) drivers to pay.
much more sturdy than buses, and last many decades longer. While buses
must generally be retired and replacements purchased about every 10
years, streetcars typically last 40 years or more. For example,
Philadelphia’s SEPTA transit system is still using streetcar vehicles
built in 1947 (although they have been overhauled once since then).
One of the big reasons why many Americans don’t like buses is that they
are so rumbly. They jerk you up, down, side to side. They’re simply not
comfortable. Streetcars glide along a rail much more smoothly, offering
a vastly more comfortable ride. Less motion sickness, easier to hang
on. This issue isn’t often discussed in transit circles, but it is a
really big deal. Passengers gravitate towards the most comfortable ride.
In any big city, buses are confusing. There are so many criss-crossing
and competing routes that it can be intimidating and difficult to
understand. New users are turned off because they don’t want to
accidentally get on the wrong bus and end up miles from their real
destination. Streetcars, on the other hand, are easier to understand
because the cost of constructing tracks inherently limits the size of
the system. Instead of an incomprehensible jumble, you get a clean and easy to understand system map.
Even if streetcar line names may be a little more complicated than “Red
Line”, they’ll be a whole heckuva lot easier to figure out than “P18″.
Partially because of the above points, streetcars are always used by
more people than buses when all other things are equal. They attract
more passengers, which after all is the whole point of public transit.
The presence of rail transit nearby is one of the best incentives for
economic development in the world. Metro stations radically remade large
swaths of the DC area, and streetcars can do the same (have done the
same, in places like Portland and Toronto). Nobody ever built a condo
building or shopping mall because a bus route stops nearby, but
developers routinely follow rail investments with real estate ones.
Indeed, the additional taxes generated by rail-oriented development can
repay the initial capital investment.
Although it depends how the electricity is generated, this potentially
makes streetcars much more environmentally friendly than buses. And
while it’s true that electric buses exist, they are almost never used in the US, and require the same overhead wires as streetcars.
Becuase they run on electricity, streetcars are very quiet vehicles.
They are much less disruptive to neighborhood life than buses.
are graphic symbols for the city in a way that buses simply are not.
Every tourist knows about the DC Metro, the New York subway, and the San
Francisco cable cars. Their trains are an indispensable part of those
city’s brands, and streetcars will be too as soon as they’re running.
Nobody ever sent a postcard featuring a picture of a bus.
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 1:18pm
|i'll take that GM bus
by NineInchNachos on 8/21/2012 @ 1:19pm
|Juneau, Alaska has those fake streetcar buses. Popular with the cruise ship tourists. Not so good in the rain.
by cisserosmiley on 8/21/2012 @ 1:58pm
|personally, i want rail up 6th ave even if it does suck while building...but Joni Earl is a huge fan of these koolzy busses so keep lobbying for rail everyone.|
by jenyum on 8/21/2012 @ 8:53pm
|I took the survey, and expressed in the strongest possible terms that voters will be absolutely furious if they end up with a bus instead of a streetcar.|
by KevinFreitas on 8/28/2012 @ 8:10am
|No Tacomic this week? :(|
by NineInchNachos on 8/28/2012 @ 8:13am
|tacomic delayed due to fever. stay tuned!
by KevinFreitas on 8/28/2012 @ 8:47am
|Feel better soon sir!|
by fredo on 8/29/2012 @ 7:06am
|Pierce County is part of a three county transit effort to put in a regional transit system. Many folks have warned that the money would be used to install a system to be built out from Seattle and that the outlying areas would have to wait. |
It's now beginning to look like these warnings are coming true. Now that Seattle has it's state of the art system and buildouts there's little regional interest in finishing the system. Tacomans are such suckers for visionary thinking.
What we will probably eventually get from Sound Transit is a couple of donkey carts shuttling folks from Salishan to the EQC.
by JesseHillFan on 8/31/2012 @ 5:03pm
|Thanks for your thorough and excellent posting Erik.I too hope Nin gets well soon.By the way I believe that the Tacoma Mall is not the cause of the decrepitation of DT Tacoma rather it was a symptom.The real causes I feel are the rise of the automobile with its disastrous side effects,the removal of the streetcar system replaced by the ICE buses and the rise of television which made the theater district less desired.|
by NineInchNachos on 9/12/2012 @ 10:58pm
|Dear Neighbors, |
Those of you interested in
speaking up about where the expansion of the LINK Light Rail should go
you have until September 17th to do so.
Please go to the website to learn more and to find the link to comment.
by Jesse on 9/13/2012 @ 7:58am
|Why is it that the new Sonics arena can be hatched in a matter of a year with it's roads plan, $490 million dollar arena, new infrastructure, and area development plan while the streetcar in Tacoma has taken ten years and still there's no resolution or at least solid plan?|
by cisserosmiley on 9/13/2012 @ 8:17am
|A billionaire hedge fund manager helps...|
by Jesse on 9/13/2012 @ 8:19am
|I understand that but there's a city part to the new arena too. Why did that plan take about a year and a Tacoma Link expansion plan is taking over 10 years?|
by NineInchNachos on 9/13/2012 @ 8:31am
|I call for day of rage.
by NineInchNachos on 11/29/2012 @ 8:02am
|RIDER ALERT! |
"Sound Transit will be hosting an open house on the future of Tacoma’s
Link Light Rail. On Wednesday, December 5 the public will have the
opportunity to learn more about the possibilities for future expansion
of the 1.6 mile line. Sound Transit staff will share information on
potential corridors, evaluation criteria used to assess possible routes,
and ways to stay informed about the project. The public will also have
the opportunity to share feedback and comments on the project. "
by Chris.Tacoma on 11/29/2012 @ 1:25pm
|...the irony that half the people commenting on this post voted against Prop 1.|
Yes, I agree it's a hell of a long time for us to get an extension. But, let's keep things in context here. What has the City done in the last couple years?
Tacoma spent city funds on a new station on 11th st, which has led to a significant increase in ridership.Tacoma spent a good chunk of funds on the Stadium Way reconstruction, which restores the ability of that right of way to handle streetcar operations should it be chosen for an alignment.Finally, Tacoma is funding a portion of the alternatives analysis.
Additionally - and I'm really trying to look at the bright side of all of these studies - since the alignment analysis has been so thorough and yet so broad in geographical scope, it will be much easier to move on to a phase 2 discussion of expansion AND have such an expansion shovel ready for inclusion in an ST3 package just like Seattle's First Hill streetcar was for ST2.
by NineInchNachos on 12/10/2012 @ 11:25am
|here is a story... |
by NineInchNachos on 1/7/2013 @ 7:51am
by Jesse on 1/7/2013 @ 8:07am
|A feedback session ON Portland Avenue? Isn't that a remaining route choice? Gee-williker-wiz, what do you suppose the feedback will be? Do you suppose it will be biased any? Are they fishing for some statements of Portland Ave area residents so they feel good about making the wrong choice of going down Portland Avenue? |
This process is agonizing in the sense that all they're doing is gathering biased opinion from citizens that know nothing about how/where a streetcar would be most effective. All they really know is that they "want it by their house."
They need to get rid of all the non-profit execs on the panel and go with professional outside city planners to determine the route.
by cisserosmiley on 1/7/2013 @ 8:58am
|If the Link was built out Portland Ave., I would be laughing so hard I would barely be able to pack my things and move from Tacoma in simple protest of mentally I'll people running transit services.|
by fredo on 1/7/2013 @ 9:12am
|This process is agonizing in the sense that all they're doing is gathering biased opinion from citizens that know nothing about how/where a streetcar would be most effective. All they really know is that they "want it by their house." jesse|
You're catching on, Jesse. Good for you.
The real decisions are made behind the scenes, perhaps at executive sessions which are off the public record, or made at the golf course between power brokers. These public hearings and opportunities for public feedback are really just theater for the amusement of the uninformed.
by Jesse on 1/7/2013 @ 10:02am
|@fredo: thank god for that!|
by tacoma_1 on 1/7/2013 @ 6:51pm
|Actually. I'm perfectly happy that people want to have the street car in their neighborhood. That makes them IMBY's instead of NIMBY's. it's a lot better problem to have. |
by NineInchNachos on 1/7/2013 @ 8:20pm
|I am all for biased opinions about street car. High five! |
I believe the streetcar should go past my house.
by tacoma_1 on 1/7/2013 @ 8:31pm
I'm ok with it going past your house as long as it goes past Crown Bar first.
It's never gonna go to Old Town, so ill hafta settle for one of my watering holes
by NineInchNachos on 2/11/2013 @ 7:18pm
by Jesse on 2/12/2013 @ 8:06am
|From a Chris Karnes Facebook post, he says he found out the date to open the new LINK extension is (drum roll please!) 2020!!! LOL... by then the "vision" will have changed again as all current council members will be termed out. Ready for yet another "study" in about 2018?|
by Cheechmo on 2/12/2013 @ 4:46pm
|Really? Seven more years? Ugh.
by cisserosmiley on 2/12/2013 @ 8:02pm
|By 2020 I'll be too old to want LINK, maybe levitating magnet cycles, but train no.|
by Jesse on 2/13/2013 @ 7:35am
|I went to the LINK session last night to see if 2020 was about right. They said that is what they're shooting for but no promises. Maybe early if they can get a funding partner in line - which actually scares me because a funder may come up for the wrong line and that one gets built - I hope that isn't a possibility.|
by cisserosmiley on 2/13/2013 @ 8:34am
|...like the feds will insist on an east side LINK for economic development...instead of building up 6th ave for utility.|
by NineInchNachos on 2/13/2013 @ 10:51am
|say wa? |
by NineInchNachos on 2/26/2013 @ 3:52pm
|tacoma weekly www.tacomaweekly.com/dailymashup/view/th...
by NineInchNachos on 3/19/2013 @ 9:41am
|ALERT ALERT! |
by NineInchNachos on 3/20/2013 @ 9:00pm
by Jesse on 3/20/2013 @ 9:22pm
|Thanks for the updates.|
by NineInchNachos on 3/21/2013 @ 7:56am
|sounds like things are going well |
by cisserosmiley on 3/21/2013 @ 8:39am
|This was the pre-made decision rollout process where overwhelming citizen support went to sanity & insanity won out anyway.|
by NineInchNachos on 3/21/2013 @ 8:47am
|what is going on! |
by NineInchNachos on 3/21/2013 @ 9:55am
|SHIELDS UP! BATTLE STATIONS! |
by NineInchNachos on 3/21/2013 @ 12:32pm
by Jesse on 3/21/2013 @ 1:31pm
|I don't know why they can't do a cable car from the mm bridge up 11th, north on MLK to 6th, turn west on 6th and travel up 6th to the MSM area. To me, that'd be ideal. In fact, the team that just reported on the MLK sub area plan (rose center peeps) encouraged east to west connections on 11th. Make the line a couplet on 11th and 13th downtown. I think thAt may be the ultimate route if only sound transit would do cable cars.|
Later on, I would run the current link to stadium up stadium way to Tacoma Avenue and down Tacoma Ave.
I personally think connecting the hospitals isn't important. If you understand hospital staff, you know they rarely leave - in fact this was said at the Rose center meeting about the medical mile idea.
by NineInchNachos on 3/21/2013 @ 3:42pm
|nice write up in the Tacoma Weekly |
by tacoma_1 on 3/21/2013 @ 9:42pm
|Yeah I read the article. Gotta say that Boe comes off as if he is trying to obstruct this project if he doesnt get his way, more than be a part of a viable solution. He won't be getting my vote ever again. |
by Jesse on 3/22/2013 @ 7:42am
|I don't think Boe is out to obstruct the project. I think his goals are density and downtown development. That's noble. Where the problem lies is that this has been an ongoing process for years and as it sits, Tacoma will wait until at least 2017 for the expansion. That's 14 years between lines - a massive failure unto itself. If anything does change, as far as Link plans, it needs to happen pretty damned fast - and I mean fast in a fast way, not fast in a gov't way.|
As they think about the line alignment options, they should also be packaging land in bundles for development I think. Get the land and infrastructure ready along the preferred alignment for developers to be shovel ready for density - so the city can capitalize on the excitement of the new line. If that means it's a hybrid line for downtown, so be it - but again, make it fast fast fast... and don't run the Link outside of the downtown area.
Here's an idea to ponder: why not bring in United Streetcar and urban planners from outside the area (so they have no personal agenda) and ask THEM where they think the streetcar should go. Asking the pro's? What a concept!!!
by NineInchNachos on 3/22/2013 @ 8:37am
|David Boe That's
right - Planning? Planning? We don't need no stinking master planning.
Cost, neighborhood equity. economic development and future expansion
oppotunities be damned - full speed ahead!
Chris Karnes Seven
years of planning, nine if you count the other studies from ST after we
opened nearly ten years ago. We have done enough studies. They all
return the same results. In 2007 it was 6th, MLK and Portland Ave. In
2011 it was 6th, MLK and Portland Ave.
Now we have the same choices in B1, E1 and C1. It is time to move
forward. Portland has continuously built track, so has Seattle. The next
part of the analysis contract is queued up and you want to rescope and
delay another six months?
city's 2007 feasibility study is a part of what was presented as a
comprehensive transportation system to council back in 2011. Was it
developed after that? I wish it had been, but Council dropped the ball
despite our best efforts telling you otherwise. I told Jake on several
occasions, got him on the phone to talk about doing some transit
planning before things got too fast, and he told me no-Sound Transit
by NineInchNachos on 3/22/2013 @ 8:41am
|***NEW SURVEY*** |
by cisserosmiley on 3/22/2013 @ 8:41am
|Bringing in pros would be a great step for Tacoma trans planning. Unfortunately, demographers & economists have clearly measured viability for population growth & income stability in Tacoma to be pegged to the greater Seattle-Metro area. WE should support Seattle's growth if WE want growth here. 'Bullet Train 2 Seattle'|
by Jesse on 3/22/2013 @ 9:10am
|Lol. Funny. You want all good jobs in Seattle? Why? Do you just adore the traffic? Is it the snotty people and agressive drivers you'd like to deal with daily? A commute of hours onto your workday? Do tell!|
by NineInchNachos on 3/22/2013 @ 10:24am
by cisserosmiley on 3/22/2013 @ 10:30am
|I don't PERSONALLY want such things :) After taking a leave from my doctoral studies I worked for the Russell parent co. & commuted to Seattle in my non descript 4 door sedan -or- used the 59- busses when I felt green. Tough life unless you are intrigued by cars & roads. But you posed the question: what would 'OUTSIDE PROS' say about Tacoma...I believe demographers view Tacoma as an unnecessary urban element, too close to Seattle, without a seperate economic function. Tacoma is simply a 'poor Seattle' We will be less poor if Seattle does better & there is little that can make Tacoma economically stronger that doesn't have an effect on Seattle too. WE r Link'ed so to speak. 3 things that would help, but will never happen because of collective sour emotions about Seattle's cultural & economic dominance: 1) Port of Seattle takes over port operations in Tacoma as a regional port authority. 2) build more Tacoma -to- Seattle rapid non-stop transit. 3) Unincorporate and let Ruston, UP, Lakewood, Fircrest, Puyallup, Parkland, Fife, & Federal Way annex the unincorporated area. Please do not be mad @ me, I don't want these things, but they would help increase the universally 'measurable' living standards of income, home value, & employment rate.|
by NineInchNachos on 3/23/2013 @ 11:01am
by tacoma_1 on 3/23/2013 @ 11:34am
|This city couldn't get out of its own way to save itself. |
Boe isn't a transportation planner. He's an architect for buildings (not rail) and a part time city councilman that's hired to represent his constituents. He needs to put away his cocktail napkin drawings and get back to doing his job. No one but this council wants more delay. In ten friggin years, is just a little forward progress too much to ask for?
by NineInchNachos on 3/23/2013 @ 12:11pm
|you know what we need? A BACKBONE MONORAIL !
by Jesse on 3/23/2013 @ 2:07pm
|Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the Puyallup Tribe is ready to pony up the money for the Portland Avenue end of the new "hybrid" line to the tune of $50m so that the Sound Transit matching $50m and the Small Starts matching $50m can be achieved immediately? (How long might it take the city otherwise?) That might push construction up to just a couple of years from now while obtaining service to MLK and the South Downtown area quickly. It would also provide the "spine" for other neighborhoods so expanding isn't measured in multiple miles but in blocks to other neighborhoods. The fact is, nobody really knows what's going on unless you work at city hall in this department... and... there is no way that the city could announce something like that until it was a done deal.|
by NineInchNachos on 3/23/2013 @ 3:31pm
by cisserosmiley on 3/23/2013 @ 7:11pm
|***repost from above*** Joni Earl told me it makes more sense to use road trans from a cost and utilization standpoint. Busses lose to rail only in the hipster factor, and there are cool new busses that look like rail cars but run on tires. Perfect for 6th avenue where I own property.. Get on board Tacoma !!!|
by Erik on 3/24/2013 @ 2:58pm
|Just in from transit advocate Chris Karnes:|
Join us for an evening to rally for the expansion Tacoma Link light rail.
We will have information about next steps, information about each of
the alternative corridors, and an opportunity to sign a letter of
After more than 7 years of study, it is time to move forward
with an extension of Tacoma Link. The Amocat Cafe will be serving beer this evening.
Program/speakers to follow at 6:00pm
When: April 5, 2013 5:00 p.m.
Where: Amocat Cafe located at 625 St. Helensin downtown Tacoma
Link to event on Facebook:
by JesseHillFan on 3/25/2013 @ 7:16am
|Somebody at the newstribune brought up a good point.How is the LINK supposed to get up hills.This was mentioned as a possibility as grades above 7% is the maximum for adhesion-based rail.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_railway|
A cable hauled cable car or a funicular also a viable hill climber (Funicular the best for the steepest hills).
Also I remember a while back when the LINK had a problem in a snow storm.Likely a no go up hills..
by tacoma_1 on 3/25/2013 @ 7:42am
|Stadium way is being regraded right now to allow the streetcar to make the trip. And Wikipedia is wrong (again) about the 7%.|
Let the planners plan, and the engineers engineer.
by JesseHillFan on 3/25/2013 @ 7:51am
|Your link doesn't work tacoma_1.However I did see it after adding the m to the hyperlink.It still is not likely to work during snow/ice conditions up hills.|
by NineInchNachos on 3/25/2013 @ 8:07am
|some of the buses can barely make it up 19th
by cisserosmiley on 3/25/2013 @ 8:40am
|A smarter Tacoma would re-organize around the central-Tacoma plateau.|
by tacoma_1 on 3/25/2013 @ 9:30am
|It's the PNW. If there is a 10% chance of snow or ice, everyone stays home. |
by NineInchNachos on 3/25/2013 @ 11:14am
EventsInvite FriendsMaybeRally to Move Forward on Tacoma Link
Join us for an evening to rally for the expansion Tacoma Link light rail.
We will have information about next steps, information about each of
the alternative corridors, and an opportunity to sign a letter of
support. After more than 7 years of study, it is time to move forward
with an extension of Tacoma Link.
The Amocat Cafe will be serving beer this evening.
Program/speakers to follow at 6:00pm.
by NineInchNachos on 4/1/2013 @ 8:31am
by NineInchNachos on 9/20/2013 @ 5:39pm
|THEY'RE DOIN IT WRONG!!! www.tacomatomorrow.com/2013/09/rational-...