Arizona Part 2: When the Revolution Comes, Whose Side Will You Be On?

Empowered UW Student Activists vs. Flying Jowl Elder Beings
posted May 25, 2010
THE TACOMIC - Arizona Part 2: When the Revolution Comes, Whose Side Will You Be On? (Tacoma, tacomic, Arizona not a boycott, racism, revolution, one world order, conspiracy,)
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While the TNT Opinion columnists are busy spanking Councilperson David Boe over retarded baseball stadium designs, While ex-Councilperson Mike Lonergan is busy remotely influencing is inarticulate, obey-the-spambot first-born Joe Lonergan, While profits from pornographic sockpuppet flame wars, one cartoon dares illustrate the holistic perspective!  Ask yourself this one important question friends: When the phone rings at 3 AM, who is going to answer the call? That's right, you better pick up because damnit THE FUTURE is on the line.

This is not a symbolic gesture about TACOMA vs. ARIZONA, this is a symbolic gesture about LIFE vs. DEATH. Are you going to throw in your lot with the terrified old people who cling bitterly to abstract concepts like political boarders OR are you going to embrace change, fresh blood... youth and energy?  I know what I'd do (make sure to watch may 18th city council meeting public comment).

by marumaruyopparai on 5/25/2010 @ 3:12am
Sexy mamacita on left vs. conglomerated flying jowl polyp. . .hmmm. . .tough choice. . .

by The Jinxmedic on 5/25/2010 @ 8:06am
I'm doing my part- to be a better neighbor (quite literally), I'm learning Spanish from reading both parts of the bi-lingual signs in Wal Mart, Lowes, and Sears.By doing this, I shall be better prepared for the future! (Um, "Sere Preperado para el futuro", or something like that.)

by Mofo from the Hood on 5/25/2010 @ 8:07am
Yeah people, keep a watch on the neo-freaks of the Tacoma Country Council. Y'all witness first hand who follows the men (Hunters) and who follows the women (Gatherers).

by fredo on 5/25/2010 @ 8:10am
RR you seem really impressed with the positions presented in the council meeting public comment period by pretty brown skinned college coeds and people speaking in unintelligible tongues and wearing goofy shirts.

Thank god we have some clear thinking elected officials like Joe Lonergan and Marty Campbell who refuse to be swayed by this superficial socialist smokescreen.

But your cartoon is pretty funny.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 8:39am
@mofo @fredo

tick tock tick tock

tick tock the crock

by fredo on 5/25/2010 @ 9:55am
2010: pretty immigrant girls warm RRs loins and chill his brain.

2020: immigrant girls have dropped a few anchor babies

by Mofo from the Hood on 5/25/2010 @ 10:22am
"If All The Seas Were One Sea..."

If all the seas were one sea,
What a great sea that would be!
If all the trees were one tree,
What a great tree that would be!
If all the axes were one axe,
What a great axe that would be!
If all the men were one man,
What a great man he would be!
And if the great man took the great axe,
And cut down the great tree,
And let it fall into the great sea,
What a great splash-splash that would be!

---Father Goose

by jenyum on 5/25/2010 @ 10:43am
I am frustrated by the lack of time stamps and the copyright notice on the TV Tacoma City Council recordings. So I transcribed some of the testimony.

I give you, unedited, "Angry No-Poster Dude." (The "shadows" racial slur totally went over my head until someone pointed it out later on in the meeting.) I could not understand his name. Maybe somebody who was there/has louder speakers could fill me in.

I'm glad we got a little diversity in the group here, thank you sir.

Basically I disagree with this whole province of what we are doing here.
We're not Arizona, we don't live in Arizona we don't have the same experience or problems. We live in a nice little, safe community.

There's no shadows here, I don't see a lot of shadows here.

Anyway, I hear a lot of talk about broken border systems.
I haven't heard anyone say what that means or what they propose to do, everyone just says they are broken.
I'm thinking what they mean and what they're not saying is amnesty and open borders and I think a lot of that will come out of this idea that we can just let things go and let things happen and pretend like there's not anything happening. No country in the world has open borders where you can just wander in or out with or without your ID. If you go to Europe you're gonna have to have your ID with you, you can't even get a hotel room without
your ID. So I guess the last thing is something about it is a law, there's legal and illegal so I guess you know if we're going to have open borders we can all pick and choose whatever we want to do, whenever we want to select of whatever laws I might not feel like I want to pay my taxes and other people might have a problem with that they might want to put me in jail.

It's just the whole thing is unfortunate, it's a problem. The federal government isn't doing something Arizona is doing what they have to do.

--turns to leave, notices posters---
And the other thing is, I resent these posters. Nobody told me I could bring posters here maybe I should write one up....
Coucilmember Fey: excuse me sir

Dude: Yes?

Fey: would you address your comments to us?

Dude: I will, but they're addressing something to me while I'm talking now to you. Is that fair?

Fey: I'm gonna ask that people bring their signs down please.

Dude: That doesn't seem fair in a room like this where you want a *civil* discourse.

Fey: I think I've taken care of the matter for you.

Summary: Immigration laws=Fair, not optional. 1st Amendment=Not fair, optional.

I think my brain 'sploded.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 10:48am
nothing time can't fix. just wait.

anyway... what is there to say that hasn't been said already? Probably no new arguments. I blame the carton of coffee icecream for this cartoon.

by fredo on 5/25/2010 @ 10:55am
Jenyum, thanks for your posting. Those who want to watch to council meetings can tune in on Tuesday nights or just watch it when it's rebroadcast (check your channel listings) or join the 21st century and buy a DVR.

Regarding the "summary" you provided: the speaker who you describe somewhat condescendingly as "the dude" never mentioned the first amendment. What you provided wasn't a summary but rather a conclusion. I thought the guy did a fine job under the circumstances. You know, some of the pro-boycott speakers were not especially gifted public speakers. The pretty latino girl froze like a deer in the headlights.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 11:00am

the leering, sneering fat faces of the minute men mocking the brave young students helped fuel the rage needed to draw this cartoon.


The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

by Erik on 5/25/2010 @ 11:15am
The new resolution is extremely watered down yet it still does not make any sense.

The new proposed resolution states that that the Arizona law violates the 14th Amendment. Yet, there is no legal opinion made whatsoever to support this conclusion. Even if there was, it would be for a court to decide so there is a reality disconnect with the resolution as proposed.

Oh well, at least it will be over hopefully tonight and the city can start looking at things that the city can make a difference on like restoring the blighted crime ridden Winthrop Hotel or putting some life into the dead zones downtown::

This will be the second city council meeting now where the city was looking at other states for their problems rather than doing the hard work at looking at Tacoma's issues.

by fredo on 5/25/2010 @ 11:19am
Lazarus was a gifted poet, as a visionary...not so gifted.

by The Jinxmedic on 5/25/2010 @ 11:37am
It's a frickin' waste of the council's time to be worrying about some other state.

Don't like what Arizona is doing? As an individual, exercise your rights- don't buy Arizona products, don't go to sporting events featuring Arizona teams, don't buy Arizona iced tea (I don't care where it's actually made, it says "Arizona" on it), don't buy semiprecious stones, silver or copper from Arizona, don't go to the Grand Canyon, don't boat on Lake Powell, don't support Biosphere I (what's left of it).

But for the city to waste valuable time and resources on this? When polling shows that over 70% of Tacomans are against the travel ban/boycott/sanction/disapproval resolution? Not a great way to win popular support for the new council.

By alll means, have a "Hispanic Days" celebration at the next waterfont festival to show the city's rightful support of our latino population - but leave this misguided attempt of misplaced moral rightouesness out of city council.

We have our own problems that need fixing -things that require more than just a new parking lot to pave over past failures. And we wonder why nothing ever happens? Here's why - another two weeks of council time wasted.

by jenyum on 5/25/2010 @ 11:50am
You thought he did a good job? With the racial slur and the First Amendment trampling?

Re: City Council recordings. It would be nice to have them in a format that could be shared or edited, or at least have a time stamp so I could say "check out the exchange that occurred between 2:37 and 2:42" instead of asking people to skim through a 4 hour meeting.

Re: Fairness, the Constitution, which laws are optional, and whether it all means anything. More words from our fellow Tacomans.

Candy Marquez:

Good evening, my name is Candy Marquez. Last Friday, something happened to me.

I was on my way to work, walking to work. A person approached me, this was a Caucasian person, began to say insults to me. Just because I am Mexican.

I asked her: what was her problem? Because she threatened to kill me. And she said "My problem is Mexicans."

I called the police, because I was very scared. I had my four year old daughter with me, and what the police said to me was, "Well, this is normal for what is going on in Arizona right now." - and that is not normal. Not here, not in Arizona, and not anywhere else. And I'm asking all of you for your help, to boycott Arizona because it is not fair that what is happening in Arizona is coming here, and causing problems for all of us.

Just because I appear to people as Mexican, it is not fair that people would be discriminating against me. (And I am very nervous, sorry.) Thank you.

Jerry Holman

My name is Jerry Holman, and usually I don't come to these things because I have great faith in this council. And unfortunately, yesterday I was in Santa Fe (the reason I was in Santa Fe was because I am a major in the United States Army Reserve) and I was the battalian commander for my battalian, while we were preparing for redeployment to Afghanistan.

So, I had been out of communication with the rest of the world for about 10 days. And I was in the Santa Fe airport when my faith was suddenly shaken, because I was watching the news in the airport and it was talking about this issue that I had no idea was going on.

And I saw them talking about San Francisco, and Los Angeles, and Seattle, and then my great beloved city came up and I could not believe what I heard.

I know some of you, and so of course I spoke to some of you. And I could not believe that originally there was putting something forward that protected our Fourth Amendment rights.

And I thought - and I actually waivered a little on this today, I debated coming in here - I remembered an oath that I took when I got promoted to the rank of major - and I said - someone had me swear like you swore when you took your oath of office - I, who have been appointed a major in the United States Army - do solemnly swear to support the Constitution of the United States, and defend it against *all* enemies foreign *and domestic.*

Anyone who tramples upon our Constitution and our amendments is an enemy of our country. And I also heard some other people come up here and speak before I spoke, and we saw the true face of hatred and racism today.

I was appalled by the remark that the man made about shadows, "I don't see shadows in the room." It was disgusting. And then that same person had the audacity to ask people to take down their signs, excersizing not only their other rights but their First Amendment rights. So, not only did he want their Fourth Amendment rights trampled, but he wants their First Amendment rights trampled, too!

And we did it!

I'm really upset about this. I've been in combat, ok? I'm a bronze star recipient. And I'm shaking right now.

I have been blown up by IEDs. I have lost brothers and sisters in combat, but I'm standing here, because this is important.

This is more important than potholes. This is more important than transportation. This is more important than safe streets. Because *it's about safe streets.* Alright, it brings everything together. And without it, like Anita Latch said, like other people said, we have nothing.

So I'll ask you to please reconsider, and look in your hearts. This is not about your political careers, or your tenure on this council, or the future of your political - whatever you may aspire to become. Think about today, and what the decisions you make today are going to bring to our state, our city, our country - and I know it sounds crazy but yes it will effect the world.

Please think about it. Thank you.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 12:05pm
Everything the JinxMedic says makes sense. But why must we make sense all the time? Why can't we be sensible 90% of the time and leave 10% for these impulsive/democratic/humanitarian side adventures?

Don't you see everything is working together here? With these rare episodes to draw people in... you have a better chance of expanding the civic life on a whole.

by Mofo from the Hood on 5/25/2010 @ 12:31pm
In my lifetime in Tacoma I've witnessed the growth of many different ethnic sectors:

• South 38th Street/Lincoln District transformed into Southeast Asian District.
• South Tacoma Way near Steilacoom Boulevard transformed into Korea Town.
• South 72nd Street from McKinley Avenue to Portland Avenue transformed into Hispanic District.

And Tacoma also has a sizable Ukrainian population.

From all over the globe many other immigrants or descendents of immigrants have made Tacoma their home.

And of course Tacoma has Native Americans and Native Blacks and Native Whites.

Who in Tacoma is the spokesman for all the legal immigrants and descendents of legal immigrants? What about OUR legal rights?

Down with Mello-Drama!

by captiveyak on 5/25/2010 @ 12:34pm
The rationale that says "this is not Tacoma's problem, it's Arizona's" seems very reasonable to me. I've abstained from joining the fray (and I'm sure my input was sorely, sorely, sorely, sorely missed) because I had nothing to add. But the serviceman's address to the council gave my conscience a bit of a twist.

Our Federal law is constructed so that no state could ever violate our basic rights outright. Past generations have been careful to amend the Constitution in response to those who found new ways to circumvent its intent. So, in essence, maybe the STATED RIGHTS of Americans as currently defined are not necessarily being violated. But Arizona has certainly found a way to circumvent the INTENT of the constitution by chilling the expression of "otherness." That's the dog whistle here -- those who agree with the Arizona law seem to understand this very clearly. It is stunning that the Federal Government was neither prepared nor educated enough with regards to this law to have any immediate determination as to its consistency with the intent of the Constitution. Their lack of action does not mean that the Constitution has not been violated. It means that no one has the balls to stand up for the inclusive essence of being an American.

And maybe Arizona's violation of our national conscience is not a horrid, egregious, obvious or blatant trangression. But it is a transgression nonetheless. At what point does a transgression become severe enough to warrant recognition? It sets a poor and dangerous precedent to pretend that such things are admissable.

If Tacoma wants to stand up for that, goddamit, that's just fine with me.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 12:55pm

Thank you sir, your input is always sorely awesome.

* * *

man, wish I could articulate like that.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 1:04pm
man.. Jerry Holman should go on Mike Lonergans radio show... he should have is own radio show! Where are those melon radio guys? Time for a podcast.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 1:11pm

I've had luck with the open source VLC media player. when you click on an archived session your browser will pop up the microsoft player and start playing... if you right click on that window you can see where the network stream is coming from... copy and paste it into VLC player... you can play with the video a little better.

by jenyum on 5/25/2010 @ 1:18pm
@NIN: thank you, sir. Hopefully that will work. I am checking on the copyright status, since there's a rather prominent notice attached to the videos.

by L.S.Erhardt on 5/25/2010 @ 1:22pm
Quite frankly, this is the first salvo in the upcoming war.

What war?
Within 5-15 years, some manner of global conflict is inevitable. Between the financial hole the world's countries have dug themselves into, the social unrest from perpetual high unemployment and about 7,000,000,000 people competing for declining resources, a BIG war is inevitable.

By that point, xenophobia will be rampant. The Arizona law will be nothing compared to what's coming with FEMA's "relocation camps".

by The Jinxmedic on 5/25/2010 @ 2:04pm
uh, oh.

That's whole 'nother cat and a brand new bag Thorax just opened up.

See you guys later, I'm heading fro the hills while I still have a chance.

(Say, that's not a bad idea...)

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 2:48pm
you guys are crazy. there is no 'one world order' . Stop listening to those AM radio shows.

by L.S.Erhardt on 5/25/2010 @ 2:58pm
Talk radio typically is for those who like talk radio.

Regardless, I'm just glad that by the time another global conflict breaks out, I'll be too old for the draft.
That and my 20/80 vision (without the glasses).

4F, baby!

by The Jinxmedic on 5/25/2010 @ 3:01pm
Me, 20/200. 13 years in, so far.

Bubble burst!

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 3:05pm
they'll have robot dog armies by then... just need your brain... parts of it anyhow.

by JesseHillFan on 5/25/2010 @ 3:31pm
I'll be on the side of the Confederate States of America against the acts of Northern aggression

The flag of sucession

Hurrah for the Confederacy

by Non Sequitur on 5/25/2010 @ 6:14pm
The south will rise again!

Just like they've been saying every year for the last century and a half.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 6:16pm
heavens to Betsy!

by Erik on 5/25/2010 @ 6:46pm
Anyone to live blog the city council meeting? Exit 133 is having an adjournment contest.

by jenyum on 5/25/2010 @ 6:54pm
Ack, that's tonight?

Seems like they are talking about something else at the moment. When did it start?

by Erik on 5/25/2010 @ 6:57pm
Tacoma makes King 5 news and U Tube:


Posted on May 25, 2010 at 6:45 PM

TACOMA, Wash. - The Tacoma City Council is preparing to vote on a resolution opposing Arizona's new law on illegal immigration. The vote was postponed last week so that the entire council could vote on the matter.

The resolution needs five votes to pass. And even as the meeting got underway, the co- sponsor, Councilman Ryan Mello wouldn't guarantee it would pass for a second week.

Dozens of citizens came to show their support of or disagreement with the Tacoma City Council resolution which asks Arizona to rescind its law cracking down on illegal immigration and demands that the Obama Administration enact comprehensive immigration reform.

by jenyum on 5/25/2010 @ 6:57pm
Just introduced the resolution. Tune to channel 12 now.

not going to go too crazy copying and pasting until I'm done, so maybe follow along there.

by JesseHillFan on 5/25/2010 @ 8:45pm
I just love it when Robert Jesse Hill speaks always for a good laugh.He isn't always able to be at the city council meetings (because many times he is incarcerated at the Pierce County Jail).His last comment was Deutschland über alles.Just hilareous.HA HA HA

by Erik on 5/25/2010 @ 8:54pm
Boe cited something about the turtle and explained many reasons to abstain and holds his grounds and.....abstains.

That's the most dignity any Tacomic has received in the history of the city.

BTW, where is the Boe and Mr. T Tacomic? There are so many Tacomics it is hard to find the right one.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 9:00pm
Hill did a good one tonight. so cool. Boe is a fun council member.

by jenyum on 5/25/2010 @ 9:22pm
Resolution passed.

by fredo on 5/25/2010 @ 9:29pm
" And I also heard some other people come up here and speak before I spoke, and WE saw the true face of hatred and racism today. " Jerry Holman

We who? Was he appointed to speak for a group? I listened to the same testimony he did and I didn't hear any racism or hatred. People were passionate about living in a country where immigration laws are upheld.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 9:32pm
So cool. Not as many crazy old people this time. Strickland was on fire tonight.

by NineInchNachos on 5/25/2010 @ 9:33pm
Now we can move on to the boring potholes. parking lots etc.

by NineInchNachos on 5/26/2010 @ 8:06am
for posterity

also where's that tacoma mama live twitter digest?

by NineInchNachos on 6/2/2010 @ 8:43am
meanwhile in pierce county:

by Altered Chords on 6/2/2010 @ 9:24am
It is great to see that while the city of Tacoma is telling the state of Arizona what to do, the county of Pierce, WA is telling the US government what to do.

Now we need the US to tell the UN what to do so that the UN can tell the United Federation of Planets what to do.

Meanwhile, I'm drafting an email that I'm sending to the pres of the company I work for telling him what to do.

by fredo on 6/2/2010 @ 10:13am
Chords, the democrats want to figure out a way to reward people who break the law without making it seem like they are rewarding lawbreakers. Sort of an indefensible position it would seem.

by NineInchNachos on 6/2/2010 @ 10:17am

(c) Matt Bors

eat a [norm] dick[s].

by fredo on 6/2/2010 @ 12:00pm
RE: the bors cartoon.

even if the country enacted the world's most liberal immigration policy (and apparently that's what immigration "reform" is all about), people would occasionally be wrongfully detained. Presumably, Mr. Carballo was eventually released.

Lucky he wasn't wrongfully detained in a latin american prison. Release wouldn't be nearly so speedy nor so assured.

Here he got 3 hots and a cot and a Dell in his cell.

by fredo on 6/2/2010 @ 12:03pm
Oops, on closer magnification I can see that he doesn't have a laptop and blackberry, but rather a birth certificate and an ID card. My mistake.

by NineInchNachos on 6/2/2010 @ 12:23pm
what I think the point of the cartoon is, he was racially profiled and as a result had days of his life sucked away for no reason.

by fredo on 6/2/2010 @ 12:31pm
"what I think the point of the cartoon is, he was racially profiled" RR

maybe, the panel really just shows the guy in jail. nothing indicates what the offense was. I'm pretty sure the jails are full of people who are upset with their incarceration and automatically accuse the system of profiling them. That's jailhouse behavior.

by marumaruyopparai on 6/2/2010 @ 4:32pm
maybe, the panel really just shows the guy in jail. nothing indicates what the offense was. I'm pretty sure the jails are full of people who are upset with their incarceration and automatically accuse the system of profiling them. That's jailhouse behavior


by NineInchNachos on 6/10/2010 @ 10:21am
" Is Mexico becoming America’s Gaza?
A hot, dry desert. A tense, contentious border. Angry youths throw rocks at government security forces. Shots are fired. A 14-year-old boy lies dead."

at least our council still has the guts to not boycott AZ

by fredo on 6/10/2010 @ 10:39am
Angry youths throw rocks at government security forces.

Ironically, they should be channeling their anger at their own failed and hopelessly corrupt "government." Lucky we live in Tacoma, even the angriest Mexican can't throw a rock this far.

by NineInchNachos on 6/10/2010 @ 11:05am
cold blooded murder...

by fredo on 6/10/2010 @ 11:38am
the story you linked doesn't say anything about "cold blooded murder." it merely describes the ongoing investigation into the shooting. the story certainly illustrates the dangers of provoking armed border guards. provocation frequently leads to death and destruction. in retrospect, of course, the border guard shouldn't have drawn his weapon. he should have pulled out his sketch pad and drawn a funny picture of Jose Calderon.

by NineInchNachos on 6/10/2010 @ 12:10pm
make art, not acts of war.

by NineInchNachos on 6/10/2010 @ 1:27pm
things to come:

Climate Wars: The Fight for Survival as the World Overheats
Global warming is moving more quickly than scientists initially anticipated. Even if the biggest CO2 emitters - the U.S., China and India - were to slam on the brakes tomorow, the earth would continue to heat up for decades.

Journalist Gwynne Dyer is the author of Climate Wars: The Fight for Survival as the World Overheats. You may have heard the CBC series based on the book that we aired in May last year. Today he’ll talk with us about the political, military, and strategic consequences of climate change.

by fredo on 6/10/2010 @ 3:11pm
well nachos, one good thing about global warming...

not so much cold blooded killing.

by NineInchNachos on 6/10/2010 @ 3:20pm
oooooh no you didn't! Come here you rascal. noogie time!

by NineInchNachos on 6/10/2010 @ 4:30pm
milt's take:

by fredo on 6/10/2010 @ 6:09pm
Isn't it ironic?

everyone complains about outsourcing
no one complains about $20 jeans

by fredo on 6/10/2010 @ 7:15pm

At what point does a transgression become severe enough to warrant recognition? captiveyak

Well, here's a transgression that probably warrants recognition:

by JesseHillFan on 6/10/2010 @ 8:46pm
By the way fredo the Tacoma busts were in the Seattle news as well as in the
local newstribune.

by NineInchNachos on 6/10/2010 @ 11:42pm

score one for SAFE and CLEAN!

by NineInchNachos on 10/28/2010 @ 8:16am

"NPR spent the past several months analyzing hundreds of pages of campaign finance reports, lobbying documents and corporate records. What they show is a quiet, behind-the-scenes effort to help draft and pass Arizona Senate Bill 1070 by an industry that stands to benefit from it: the private prison industry.

The law could send hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants to prison in a way never done before. And it could mean hundreds of millions of dollars in profits to private prison companies responsible for housing them.

It's a membership organization of state legislators and powerful corporations and associations, such as the tobacco company Reynolds American Inc., ExxonMobil and the National Rifle Association. Another member is the billion-dollar Corrections Corporation of America � the largest private prison company in the country"

by NineInchNachos on 1/3/2011 @ 4:56pm
proof that illegal immigration isn't all bad :

by NineInchNachos on 12/16/2011 @ 11:56am
ryan mello was right

by NineInchNachos on 4/30/2012 @ 5:22pm
what the fuck is wrong with Forks?